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Post by bloomtruck42 on Jan 9, 2007 10:37:15 GMT -5
I read a fax from the county yesterday, i'm not sure of all the details but it sounds interesting, maybe somebody else can clear it up.
aparently suffolk PD has an ambulance license and can legally operate an ambulance service within suffolk county. I've never personally seen their ambulances but heard of people seeing it at hostage situations, chases etc. What i got from it was that they currently hold a temporary license, which they renew whenever needed with no problem. Now it seems they are looking for a permanent license, but to do that they need the signature from every ambulance company in suffolk. What do you guys think of this or where do you see it going?
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Post by warthog on Jan 9, 2007 10:57:05 GMT -5
I'm in favor of a paid ems service in Suffolk county, as long as it's not at a PO's salary. There's a car in the Central Islip/Hauppauge industrial area. I believe it's staffed with a emt/cc.
If the county decides to pull this off it will take years, they drag there feet all the time. But then again it can't be any worse then the way some (a small few) agency's are operating now.
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Post by Gargamel37 on Jan 9, 2007 11:09:01 GMT -5
I'm in favor of a paid ems service in Suffolk county, as long as it's not at a PO's salary. There's a car in the Central Islip/Hauppauge industrial area. I believe it's staffed with a emt/cc. If the county decides to pull this off it will take years, they drag there feet all the time. But then again it can't be any worse then the way some (a small few) agency's are operating now. I'm in favor of a paid police ambulance like Nassau has, it would take some of the stress off the volunteers. SCPD Cope operates a SUV staffed w/ALS for the Hauppauge Industrial Park during business hours. I believe they worked out a deal years ago with the Hauppauge Industrial Assocation for first responder service.
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Post by xvolly on Jan 9, 2007 22:18:36 GMT -5
I personally do not think it is going to happen: I see most or even all fire depts. going w/ part time or even full time ambulance personel b4 county p.d. as we all know it has started already in many areas of suffolk w/ open arms. As far as scpd ambulances, I believe they are part of the police acadamy
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Post by TRUCK1LT on Jan 9, 2007 23:08:38 GMT -5
I agree with Gargamel... A Nassau type system would work here in Suffolk very well. The area's that don't have a big problem the SCPD EMS would be secondary responders.
As far as salary goes, The county could not afford to hire and/or take the cops off the streets to staff a new EMS division. It will probably be the going rate that is being paid throught the county for CC's and Medic's. I don't see them hiring EMT-B's but stranger things have happened.
Stay Safe !
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Post by suddenlyseemore on Jan 10, 2007 8:55:46 GMT -5
this has been discussed to death in other venues
SCPD has repeatedly said they have no interest in running an ambulance services
They needed the ambulance certificate to be able to operate the ambulance they have at the academy and for potential interfacility MOS transports. i believe they might have also needed it for the helicopter and boats.
they dont need a signature from every ambulance company in suffolk for anything. their 'area of operation' as defined by Article 30 is determined based off their ambulance service certificate, subject to REMSCO and state DOH approval.
theoretically if their certificate says "All of Suffolk County" they could start running calls tomorrow in your district if they wanted and theres nothing you could do. but they have no interest in staffing a bandaid box, as was said before.
The COPE43 medic is staffed by a SCPD employed Paramedic and operates exclusively in the HIA area during business hours. Its jointly funded between SCPD and HIA Association.
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Post by Ex-Capt371 on Jan 10, 2007 11:10:25 GMT -5
There could be a possibility that their ambulance is also used for their ES Unit. I know most Departemtns across the country have SWAT Medics, and they are trained to a certain level, and operate with tactics teams. They serve one purpose, to provide for the members of the team. Perhaps this is one of those cases.
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Post by Billy Buff on Jan 10, 2007 16:51:14 GMT -5
I believe thats true Sean. The few hostage situations I've seen, the Suffolk County Police Ambulance has been there.
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Post by wqce207a on Jan 10, 2007 17:38:17 GMT -5
I can name a handful of districts on the east end that could desperately use a PD ambulance(entire Ridge valley). Hearing 3's for cardiac codes is starting to get old...
As for SWAT medics, I'd have to be extremely high on crack to enter a hostile situation with no way to defend myself except an IV and trauma shears. That's just me though...
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Post by my2cents on Jan 11, 2007 8:46:50 GMT -5
"Ridge Valley" and the East End are two totally different areas, lets not confuse the two because the problems you claim, tend to be alot less common on the Forks.
The biggest difference is that the East End is not normally served by SCPD as part of the regular police district. mostly town and village pd's. SCPD only provides some special services, and the Townships pay for those extra services in their taxes.
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Post by wqce207a on Jan 11, 2007 11:37:38 GMT -5
My2Cents, How come every single one of your posts are an attack against me? Do I know you? What is your problem with me? I don't CLAIM any problems, they are all 100% true! just flick on the scanner. Their are bugs that would have to be worked out like in Wading River where most of the district is in SCPD territory but some falls in Riverhead PD territory. Your argument is invalid, do some research! The NCPD buses respond to alot of calls in Hempstead, RVC which all have their own PD's. These PD's also recieve the "special services" (ESU, BSO, Arson Squad etc) The ambulance is a special service just like you stated. Get your panties out of a wad!!!!!!!
*Edited to remove the city of Long Beach*
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Post by ESU2422 on Jan 11, 2007 13:34:08 GMT -5
I was actually enjoying this thread. It was refreshing to see a healthy discussion where for a change the needs of the public, more specifically the care of the patient, were being put before peoples special interests. Yes, Nassau does provide an ambulance service. Everyone pays two types of taxes, "Police District Tax" which is paid by homeowners in areas patrolled by the NCPD and "Police Headquarters Tax" which is paid by everyone in the County, this pays for services as you mentioned, BSO, Detetives, Crime Scene, ESU, ambulances etc. While I understand that the SCPD ambulance is utilized only in specific circumstances, hypothetically speaking, if the PD was to begin providing an EMS service they could really do it properly. If you read some Nassau threads there `are from time to time complaints about the PD "buffing" calls or not being "primary" in someones district. There are also complaints about dispatch procedures etc. Suffolk could actually set the example here if something like this was attempted. Centralized CAD would be a good start. People on Long Island pay some of the highest property taxes anywhere, they deserve a service for those dollars. If you keep the needs of the public and the care of the patient as your goal and purpose the other stuff is small change.
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Post by wqce207a on Jan 11, 2007 15:53:02 GMT -5
We have CAD, the problem would be(is) the breakdown between the seperate police districts on the east end commmunicating with FRES (Suffolk firecom) in a timely manner. Its literally comes down to our members "buffing" the scanner to get decent response times, it is an absolute disgrace that it has come down to this but we have tried 2 different dispatch centers and had the same result. Centralized CAD would be great but it comes down to the human cog in the wheel.
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Post by XCAPT1 on Jan 11, 2007 16:37:42 GMT -5
ESU2422
How does the NCPD Ambulance system work?
Stay Safe
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Post by ESU2422 on Jan 11, 2007 17:28:30 GMT -5
ESU2422 How does the NCPD Ambulance system work? Stay Safe Basically, there are 2 PD ambulances per police pct.(Some have 3 or 4 depending on the time of day) They are manned by a civillian AMT (they are members of the PD just not PO's). In certain areas they are considered the "primary" agency, in other words if an aided call comes in through 911 the PD ambulance is dispatched along with 2 sector cars. The sector car will drive the ambulance to the hospital while the AMT is in back. In areas where PD is not "primary" calls through 911 are routed through Firecom for dispatching by the appropriate FD or VAC. Some areas are also considered "dual response" so both FD and PD are assigned. Calls thar are directly called in to a FD or VAC are handled by them regardless of who is considered "primary" There are a whole bunch of other factors and issues but that is the basics.
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Post by suddenlyseemore on Jan 11, 2007 18:33:39 GMT -5
if PD ambulances are "primary" and theres no avaiable PD rig, how long does it take for that to determine the call to be passed to the vollies?
also, does EAB bill the patients?
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Post by poiz57 on Jan 11, 2007 19:25:08 GMT -5
if PD ambulances are "primary" and theres no avaiable PD rig, how long does it take for that to determine the call to be passed to the vollies? I think I'm right, but ESU feel free to correct. It's automatic. NCPD CB knows that the primary bus is unavailable and still assigns the two sector cars, but automatically notifies firecom for the ambulance. If FD can't get out, it'll most likely either go mutual aid to another FD, or the 'secondary' PD bus [in this case, third on the list] would get assigned.
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Post by volffemt on Jan 11, 2007 20:23:10 GMT -5
We have CAD, the problem would be(is) the breakdown between the seperate police districts on the east end commmunicating with FRES (Suffolk firecom) in a timely manner. Its literally comes down to our members "buffing" the scanner to get decent response times, it is an absolute disgrace that it has come down to this but we have tried 2 different dispatch centers and had the same result. Centralized CAD would be great but it comes down to the human cog in the wheel. What 2 disp centers did Flanders try? ...ESU2422, the only problem I see wih that, is taking a sector OOS while the PO drives.
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Post by ESU2422 on Jan 11, 2007 21:26:27 GMT -5
if PD ambulances are "primary" and theres no avaiable PD rig, how long does it take for that to determine the call to be passed to the vollies? I think I'm right, but ESU feel free to correct. It's automatic. NCPD CB knows that the primary bus is unavailable and still assigns the two sector cars, but automatically notifies firecom for the ambulance. If FD can't get out, it'll most likely either go mutual aid to another FD, or the 'secondary' PD bus [in this case, third on the list] would get assigned. That would be right, the PD dispatch screen for the CAD indicates primary, 2nd and 3rd choices. If the primary PD bus is unavailable and the 2nd bus is FD the dispatcher hands it right off to Firecom. As for taking the sector out of service, yes it does take the RMP out, but it's been done here that way for ages and to the best of my knowledge has never been an issue. In fact when I started with the PD we even had PO's assigned to the ambulances. As for billing, the EAB (Emergency Ambulance Bureau) does bill for services, however the intent behind that is for the insurance companies to re-imburse for the services, not the taxpayer.
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Post by wqce207a on Jan 11, 2007 21:31:24 GMT -5
Southampton Town PD for about a week and FRES. Riverhead fire dept. can dispatch us as well but they are only backup. We are now back to FRES and 99% of the time they are on point. The problem is that the calls aren't being forwarded to FRES by Southampton Town PD for one reason or another. STPD will recieve the call, dispatch a sector car and ambulance but they never hit the magic red button to alert firecom and dispatch us. There needs to be one central dispatch and take the middleman out of it. This situation has been going on for years but nothing has been done. I know Hampton Bays got sick of it and hired their own dispatchers even though they only run 300 calls. We don't run alot of calls but most are legit and need to be dispatched quicker. If you can imagine throwing a PD ambulance and another sector car into the mix and it is a recipe for disaster.
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Post by ESU2422 on Jan 12, 2007 6:29:53 GMT -5
I am not implying that the system in Nassau is perfect. It has flaws but it does take some of the burden off of the FD's and VAC's. It's a system that is in place, and for its flaws and shortcomings it seems to work. It could use improvement and fine tuning and should something like it ever be considered for Suffolk I would hope they'd consider making it better than what exists. I have a great VAC that covers where I live but I hear them running all the time, they provide a great service but can they keep going forever?
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Post by bloomtruck42 on Jan 12, 2007 9:39:37 GMT -5
I would think if it ever came down to suffolk PD running ems they would take a good look at nassaus system and change what could be improved. Wouldn't be a bad idea to have an ambulance or two per precinct, who can start twoards a call and act as a dual response-- atleast for priority calls anyway. I always felt that dual responses were a good idea, even if it was just between the vollys. From what i can see is the only flaw would be it getting really competitive and thus putting the public at risk, maybe harsh punishments for irratic drivers could solve this.
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Post by grumpydispatcher on Jan 14, 2007 1:17:38 GMT -5
I'm going to chime in a little late on this one, but here are my feelings on the PD running an EMS system. I'm probably going to make a few new enemies on this one.
First of all, in Nassau, it works only out of necessity. It is a very flawed system. There is no central dispatching even though Firecom and the police dispatchers sit a wall apart. Because of this, ambulances often cross paths going to different calls, or a FD ambulance is alerted when a PD ambulance is already in the area or vice versa. This also causes a problem with dual responses. I can't even count how many times a PD ambulance is on a dual response call with 1 fire department that also happens to get their ambulance on scene, while another department that can't get out is being told that there is no PD ambulance available.
As far as running with 1 tech on board and tying up 2 police officers to assist... do the financial math. Add the salary of 1 tech plus 2 police officers per call and explain to me how that is financially responsible for the county to justify. It's not. It's explained with 3 little letters... PBA. It's a contract / job security / we want more money because this is how busy we are issue. There is no other place in the country that works like this.
As far as patient care goes, for the most part, the cops do not want to be there, and are either unwilling or unable to provide medical care prior to the arrival of the ambulance. When you're working on a patient who is quickly going south, do you want a another tech to work with you, or someone who you have to tell what to do and hope that it's done right?
Let's look at acceptable response times. In the world of the Nassau County Police ambulances, the entire county is their response area. Because of the lack of enough ambulances to cover the entire county, it is not uncommon for one to respond from several precincts away with eta's upwards of 15 to 20 minutes.
Now for a couple of positive notes. Yes it is a great help having at least some sort of a paid system in Nassau, as flawed as it is. There is a great need for it here because the FDs can't possibly handle it alone. I am very aware of the "fragile" ems problems all over Suffolk and the need for some type of paid system in many areas.
The best part of the Nassau system is the people that work within it. For the most part, the county techs are a great group of people. Yes, there are the problem children out there, but that exists in any system. For the most part, they do their jobs well, and are great to work alongside with. A lot has changed in recent years with their staffing. Most of this is for the better. The county should hire many more and decide to actually run an EMS system and not a PD system that happens to have an ambulance with the word Police on the side of it.
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Post by ESU2422 on Jan 14, 2007 13:02:58 GMT -5
I will agree with 99% of what Grumpy said, the only exception I have is about the PBA. Ambulances are manned by the civilians,the PO's were done away with in that bureau 15 years ago. While they are employed by the PD they are not PO's. 911 will assign a PO to the call, and if the PD ambulance is handling the aided the PO will drive but when FD is primary a PO is still assigned, only he wont be driving the FD ambulance. As far as what medical treatment the PO will give you, 15 years ago all the PO's were EMT's right out of the academy and they refreshed every 3 years. The PD stopped refreshing cops probably 10 or so years ago and even now the academy only teaches them to First Responder, the PBA has never said a word about this backwards slide. Some PO's are good and will be right in there, other guys just want to take the info and do the aided report and get out of there. Grumpy brought out the biggest flaw in the system........no centralized dispatch or coordination. Firecom and PD Communications sit in the same bunker, seperated by a wall, there is no reason in this day and age why communications can't be handled better. I don't know what it would take for it to improve in Nassau, but if such a setup was contemplated by Suffolk, I surely hope this is one issue they correct. Ambulance calls aren't going away, the population of the Island is growing, and you're getting more and more elderly as well, just look at how many assisted living homes are being built. That translates into more runs to the hospital. No one agency can handle it all, some progressive thinkers need to tackle the issue and hopefully fix it right.
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Post by grumpydispatcher on Jan 14, 2007 19:14:25 GMT -5
The problem is that the this county doesn't want to hear from progressive thinkers.
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660t
Chauffer
Posts: 62
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Post by 660t on Jan 15, 2007 11:53:05 GMT -5
I'm not use to the "New and Improved" Grumpy......Well said!!
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Post by grumpydispatcher on Jan 15, 2007 11:58:19 GMT -5
Wow... I really have to get back to my old self again.
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Post by salt-of-the-earth on Jan 31, 2007 19:54:45 GMT -5
im in EMT-B class now and the instructor informed us that all SCPD Police officers are/were at one time all certified medically to atleast the EMT level. idk how credible this information is, but if it is true, there is no need for them to staff ambulances. if PD is 1st on scene let them start primary care of the patient and await the arrival of the FD ambulance or other type of ambulance.
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Post by lindytruck164 on Feb 1, 2007 3:01:24 GMT -5
i believe it wont work in suffolk, how many fd's do you know that will give up alot of their good calls, i am very close to a nassau department, they are 3rd due in their district, and rarely get the good stuff, PD comes out and takes alot of the good stuff and tons of disagreements on whose gonna take what. maybe a centralized fly car within pcts maybe, might help, but as for a county system i dont think so, it would be a huge mess and would take tons of money and time, but that is just my opinion.
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Post by Chief241B on Feb 1, 2007 12:01:42 GMT -5
As a member of the SCPD and a Chief in Nassau. I can you telll you horror stories from both counties when it comes to ems alarms. I have seen ambulance show up loaded with people thinking to myself where is the patient going to go, to being asked by my dispatcher can one of the officers drive the ambulance. It is correct that every SCPD officer is certified as an EMT upon graduating from the academy. The problem is that some expire and it is a long time before that might be recert. I have always recert before I expired, and in fact when working have had to be the tech numerous times. This whole thread is about SCPD renewing thier ambulance certification for the county. They provide the "ambulance" transports with the medivacs. Each SCPD helicopter is staffed by a paramedic from Stony Brook Hospital. Yes SCPD does have one certified ambulance. This is used for training members during thier emt class, and also it is staffed when needed by Police academy EMT instructors at any large events or ongoing police operations. Hopsfully this clears some things up.
Could a paid ems system work in suffolk? Doesn't a lot of departments do it now? At least during the day ? If you look at the town of Babylon for example how many of those Depts have paid ems? I think the only ones that don't are Babylon, North Babylon , and North Lindenhurst. Maybe that town can be the first to put something together town wide? If all the districts and fire company presidents, village boards sat down I think that they could have one hell of an ems system..
The centralized dispatch is there = Babylon Central Combine all the paid techs, get one good EMS Boss and a couple of supervisors..
Split the cost. damm charge the service if you had to.. ( have to change NYS town law)
It could work with the right people in charge.. Just a thought, Be safe.
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